Alex
Joyeuse Insurgency
Hello.
Posts: 177
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Post by Alex on Oct 17, 2007 15:21:41 GMT -5
Who's Prime?
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Post by SwingBlade Planeswalker on Oct 17, 2007 15:25:08 GMT -5
Lord of Blades from one of the previous Pokeschool forums.
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Post by Popebenedict on Oct 17, 2007 16:27:38 GMT -5
Grrr... so many things to say... so many quotes to add... all on different pages @.@ prepare for like 10 edits on this as i add them all!
Edit #1: ~L00gs
Not acting according to your personal bias, lol, that's a good one. You and Babs have been out to get him ever since he has gotten back.
"Offends so many people and annoys many others..." that's a very broad statement. Please name me three members on this board who have not offended other people at one point. And the fact he annoys many others, is not a ground for punishment; you annoy me, does that mean you should be banned?
"Do you really think its worth it to keep him?" you speak as if he is some type of object or animal, that has no thoughts or feelings. If I directly attack you, you WILL attack me back. There is no real "worth" to keeping anyone on these boards. You are expendable, I am expendable, whatever; we really dont contribute that much, however, this is a place for entertainment and artistic illumination; to ban someone because someone else told them their artistic expression was sub-par is ridiculous. To answer your question, i think it's as much "worth" keeping him as its "worth" keeping you.
You punish his outbreak, why? I, personally, do NOT think he overreacted. He just channels his sadness a different way then you do. I remember someone telling you, that you sucked one time, and you broke out in tears. Would I consider this an overreaction? No, because that's how you express your sadness. Prime on the other hand, is one who bottles it up, and then explodes on a person or two. You may think he could have handled it better, but I could think that you should handle your crying better, it's a difference of opinion, and your bias against him is effecting your judgment.
You say he shouldn't have flipped out because of his track record... that's like telling someone, "When I set your hand on fire again, for the 20th time, you had better not scream in pain, or else your going to get in trouble."
Edit #2:
I dont know about you, but I remember a very similar comment to this being made a few months back, and then later finding out it was a lie... take this how you want.
Edit #3:
You would think wouldn't you? Hmm... but... you know what... this reminds me of something else... involving a certain three people... Not exactly the same, but very similar circumstances, and a much more damaging outcome. You two know what I'm talking about.
Edit #4:
Why is it that SV wasn't trying to provoke Prime? It looks more like Prime wasn't trying to provoke her to me. I think SV should be the one apologizing for all of this. If you dont call what she said provoking, then I have a few words for you.
Edit #5: Anyways, I'll get off my little soap box for now, but as you should have noticed, I completely disagree with this judgment call. I'm sure Prime will come back, and say he can really care less, but that's besides the point.
Your decisions are one sided. There is obviously a deep hate for Prime from Loogs and Babs, and I personally think Lee just got tired of hearing their bitching and figured this was a way to make them happy and stop. I know your going to argue and disagree with me Babs, but I am confident this is true. I agree with Vaxx, Prime should not be banned.
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Post by Yoshimitsu on Oct 17, 2007 16:35:24 GMT -5
Was I wrong in what I did? Perhaps. Do I truly care either way? Not in the least. Clearly I have no opposition to his being banned. He has always left a sour taste in my mouth, and I honestly believe this place will be richer for his absence. ~Josh Clark, aka SwingBlade For the record, I wasn't having a go at you. I was just saying how the whole thing built up and erupted, as I saw it. No hard feelings or whatever.
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Post by Yoshimitsu on Oct 17, 2007 16:58:11 GMT -5
By that as it may, outbreaks such as his have no place on any forum. You simply do not attack another member in such a fashion. It's in the rules, is it not? It's a sign of respect for other members that you don't. Prime had an utter lack of respect for other members, or other human beings at all.
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Post by Popebenedict on Oct 17, 2007 17:00:03 GMT -5
Is it Prime that has the lack of respect, or members such as l00gs and babs that have a lack of respect for prime?
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Post by Baboon on Oct 17, 2007 17:04:11 GMT -5
You and Babs have been out to get him ever since he has gotten back. "Out to get him" implies we've been trying to set him up for punishment. This is absolutely not the case. We have been more likely to consider punishment for him though, and in no way is this because of bias. If you don't want to believe me, go look at Lee's post on page 2: Repeat offenders WILL be subject to more criticism when they break the rules. It's clearly spelled out, and if you personally have an issue with that, it's simply something you have to deal with. He's not on his first offense, he hasn't been set up by us, and the staff as a whole has been increasingly frustrated by his outbursts and inappropriateness. I don't feel I need to explain our actions any further. It's about as clear as it can be.
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Post by Yoshimitsu on Oct 17, 2007 17:19:40 GMT -5
Is it Prime that has the lack of respect, or members such as l00gs and babs that have a lack of respect for prime? No, it's Prime that has the lack of respect. Do you not know him?
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Post by Popebenedict on Oct 17, 2007 17:44:57 GMT -5
I do infact know him. I will admit he makes me angry every now and again, as I'm sure that I do the same back to him. I would never punish him for yelling at me, I would simply yell back. People have arguments all the time. I see cursing on these boards quiet frequently. A post written by... say Potato, will simply be laughed at and looked over, when the same exact post will be called evil, inacceptable, vulgar, and banworthy, if someone such as Gil or Prime writes it. On top of that, as previously mentioned, the members the comments are directed toward changes the emotion about it. Im positive, if that same post were directed toward me someone would simply tell me and Prime to take it to the flame war section; but whenever someone makes a comment about danty little l00gs, or raises a fist at SV, its a criminal offense.
Yes, that's write, I'm calling these boards favortists and sexists.
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Post by SwingBlade Planeswalker on Oct 17, 2007 19:28:22 GMT -5
I do infact know him. I will admit he makes me angry every now and again, as I'm sure that I do the same back to him. I would never punish him for yelling at me, I would simply yell back. People have arguments all the time. I see cursing on these boards quiet frequently. A post written by... say Potato, will simply be laughed at and looked over, when the same exact post will be called evil, inacceptable, vulgar, and banworthy, if someone such as Gil or Prime writes it. On top of that, as previously mentioned, the members the comments are directed toward changes the emotion about it. Im positive, if that same post were directed toward me someone would simply tell me and Prime to take it to the flame war section; but whenever someone makes a comment about danty little l00gs, or raises a fist at SV, its a criminal offense. Yes, that's write, I'm calling these boards favortists and sexists. I was going to start this off with a variant of "don't take this the wrong way", but then realized I don't really care how anyone takes my posts. Regardless of what disclaimer I put, anyone will interpret them as they want. And I'm okay with that, I really am. Now that that's out of the way, I want you to find me anywhere that the administration doesn't have favorites. Right or wrong, semantics. As far as how things are taken depending on who says what to whom, you're damned right it makes a difference. If I were to tell Hope she was a horrible RPer and to go away, she'd probably laugh, shake her head, and say, "That Josh!" HOWEVER, if Yoshimitsu were to say that to her, it'd probably be taken more seriously. Why? Because Hope and I have a closer relationship than she and Yoshi would. We know each other fairly well, and she knows I think the world of her. Thus, she would know not to take such things even remotely seriously. This same principle carries over to this situation. Even giving Prime the benefit of the doubt and saying he was joking around, he was being incredibly presumptuous in his relationship with the person. You can probably go up to your best bud's girl, hit on her, and your pal will hit you, but neither of you mean it. Go up to a random stranger's girl, hit on her heavy, expect to get hit on heavy in return, facially. I can tell you from personal, painful experience that you cannot instantly assume you're best buds with someone just because you said something to them once. Relationships are built over time. You can't make asinine comments to a person and expect them to assume you're joking, pat you on the back, and buy you a Coke. World don't turn like that, yo. I don't know Lugiasian that well. As far as sexism goes, I don't know that I could defend you as vehemently as I might Hope, or SV (who I've gotten to know fairly well over the past couple of weeks). Bulbs, Kuro, these are guys with whom I have a history. Yoshi, Penguin, not so much. Regardless of the person, though, if I see bullshit going on, I will raise the flag. Overall, I think you are letting your own personal things get in the way of an objective view of things. Am I? Perhaps, though I really don't feel as though that is the case, and I've learned to trust my intuition implicitly. ~Josh Clark, aka SwingBlade PS. Eat some freaking pie people.
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Post by Beelzebibble on Oct 17, 2007 19:44:28 GMT -5
A post written by... say Potato, will simply be laughed at and looked over, when the same exact post will be called evil, inacceptable, vulgar, and banworthy, if someone such as Gil or Prime writes it. I hope you're not trying to imply that I would ever write such an explosive, offensive post as Prime and Gil have both been known to write on occasion. I also hope you don't seriously think that even if I were to write such a post, everyone would laugh it off without a second thought. Why would they do that? Because I'm well-behaved? Because I garner (I think) a small degree of respect on this forum? Because I'm of generally friendly and even-tempered demeanor? I would expect nothing less than outrage and administrative response if I were to suddenly start going around attacking people. It's no different for me than for anyone else.
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Post by bulbaboy on Oct 17, 2007 19:45:31 GMT -5
I would just like to say that each and everyone of you are my favorites. Think of me as everyones e-dad I do have to agree with swingblade there though. I think Primes main proble isn't nessicarily what he says, but whom he says it to.
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Post by SwingBlade Planeswalker on Oct 17, 2007 19:47:22 GMT -5
No, Prime did also have a problem of what was said, to be sure. Also, pohatu, rest assured. I have no respect for you.
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Post by Beelzebibble on Oct 17, 2007 19:50:27 GMT -5
Okay, cool.
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Post by Loogs on Oct 17, 2007 20:20:22 GMT -5
I would just like to say that each and everyone of you are my favorites. Think of me as everyones e-dad So if you're our e-dad and Pohatu's our e-uncle, does that make the two of you brothers? Anyway, there's one major flaw in the favoritism argument and I believe Swingy already pointed it out: it will always exist to some degree. Hell, even Prime himself used it. He tried his damn hardest to get on Lee's good side, because he knew that Lee's authority overrode ours. And I fail to see how we're sexist. We haven't really had a case where a female was the one trolling*, but that's due to the small amount of female members to begin with. Rest assured though, even if it was a female breaking the rules, she'd be treated with the same amount of discipline as would a male. Also, cursing can be used one of two ways. It's either used as adjectives to describe something(i.e. - this fucking awesome rock band) or to insult someone (i.e. - calling someone a "fucking cock-sucking bitch"). Everyone here has cursed at some point, but it's in what context you use it that determines disciplinary action. I'd also like to remind you not to take personal fights into this. Our relationships with other people outside of the board should have nothing to do with anything on the boards. You didn't do anything wrong, but if you do go and take it too far, I'll have to edit your posts accordingly. If you do go ahead and bring our personal issues into this, you'll be disrespecting Babs' and my wishes. I remember addressing this in the flame war board, and I'll bring it up again: I do not like it when people go and bring offline fights into the boards in flame form, or anything similar. It's unnecessary and ends up hurting and embarrasing people, far more than an online flame would. I consider respecting other members as one of the fundamental rules of the Exodus. Disobeying this rule inevitably leads to chaos, and that is why, in cases of severity or repeated offenses, it's universally considered as one of the reasons for bans. * except for maybe elliot but it is a well-established fact that he is female.....really go ask him if you do not believe me
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Post by Yoshimitsu on Oct 18, 2007 10:40:19 GMT -5
It's true. True!
Edit:
I did not once say she did not provoke him. I said she didn't intentionally provoke him. There's a difference. I'm not saying that she did not insult nor offend him. There's no denying that fact. However, she was defending a friend rather than picking a fight. That might not seem like much of a difference to you, but it means all the difference in the world. The difference between a thug and good friend and all that.
(Unless the person happens to be a thug AND a good friend. Then everything starts falling down. :/ )
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Post by Beelzebibble on Oct 18, 2007 10:57:00 GMT -5
I would just like to say that each and everyone of you are my favorites. Think of me as everyones e-dad So if you're our e-dad and Pohatu's our e-uncle, does that make the two of you brothers? Or maybe just brothers-in-law. I might be banging his sister.
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Post by bulbaboy on Oct 18, 2007 13:14:23 GMT -5
Or, I could be banging your sister. Of course that would make said sister everybody's e-mom...
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Post by Popebenedict on Oct 18, 2007 14:34:17 GMT -5
1. No I was not implying you would, but if you did, in some off chance, then it would be taken much more lightly.
2. Yes, I do infact believe it would not be thought much of. Maybe they wouldn't laugh it off, but they would try to talk to you and see what's wrong in your life, or make whoever provoked you apologies for it.
No no no. Read that section again in my post. I never said females would be treated with less severity when punished, I said people who attack females suffer more severe punishments from doing so, and everyone will jump on the comment if it is made at a female. Like I previously said, if that same comment were made to me, we would be told to take it to the flame boards.
Your taking it farther than I did, I kept if vague for a reason, I was simply making a comparison that would help prove my point more so to you and Babs, because, it is very like the situation now, wether you want to accept that or not.
If you all don't see this as an intentional provocation, than I dont know what is. Telling someone they suck at writing, and basically to GTFO is one of the most obvious and basic forms of provoking.
Defending her friend from what? A joke? Prime was simply defending HIMSELF from a BLATANT attack on him.
Case and point. *gets off his soap box once again*
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Post by Baboon on Oct 18, 2007 15:20:13 GMT -5
"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."*
I truly love how you're trying to disguise the fact you're trying to make Steph and me look bad. I'm not saying you can't possibly think those things, as I know you can. However, it's becoming more and more apparent that you have another motive. I've wanted to say that for a little while now, but I felt you were doing a good enough job of spouting off. Now, however, I can't keep quiet. If I'm horribly mistaken and you truly don't have a vendetta against the two of us, I'm sorry, but I have quite a hard time believing that. I, like Steph, have always been annoyed by people bringing off-the-boards issues ONTO the boards. You've rarely been around in the past weeks/months, and now you see an opportunity to bitch at/about the two of us. I hope you see why I'm more than a bit irritated with you.
*No, I don't mean that quote literally. It's one of my favorite movie quotes and I saw an opportunity to use it.
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Post by Popebenedict on Oct 18, 2007 15:49:18 GMT -5
How is this an attack to make you look bad? If I wanted to make an attack on you, I would come right out and do it. I'm responding to the topic at hand, and quoting those that pertain to my opinion, if you didn't notice 3 out of the 5 quotes i used last post were from other people, and only one of the other 2 was an attack on the subject matter. The one about the personal stuff was in no way an attack, I was simply addressing to steph that I had no intention of truly bringing it into this, which, in my opinion, is a blatant avoidance of an attack.
I don't know if you noticed, but ive been back for like 2 weeks now. If I had come back just to attack you, I wouldn't have posted until this topic arose.
Your right in saying I do disagree with steph and you more, but that's only because we are on opposite sides of the argument spectrum. I'm on the far side, saying prime should not have been banned, and your on the indefinite he should have side, pretty much everyone else is in the middle, or tilted only slightly to one side or the other.
So yes Babs, you were "horribly mistaken" in thinking that.
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Post by Baboon on Oct 18, 2007 16:07:33 GMT -5
Don't insult my intelligence. If you wanted to go after the two of us, you WOULDN'T have come straight out and said it. You know as well as anyone else that such an event would go over poorly and you'd end up looking bad because of it. I'm not saying you're posting on this thread solely to undermine us. I highly doubt you would. Few people are that self-centered, so I hope you don't think I'm implying that. I am taking offense in the subtleties (and the not-so-subtle mentions).
There are considerably more people against Prime than the two of us. Not all have voiced their blunt opinion here, but that doesn't mean it's just the two of us against him. Using our names specifically is most certainly an attack, and don't try to say it was a harmless coincidence. "Members such as" is not a way to weasel out of that either. You know damn well what you meant by posting that, and I'd have to say most people got that impression too.
First off, I don't have a clue what other "similar comment" you're referring to. Do you really think I'd blatantly lie when there are CLEARLY security logs that show every last thing done? If you haven't noticed, Lee is most certainly not an ally of mine insofar as he'd cover up me lying. Why would I risk my reputation on a lie? Prime's email address was already banned when I got to the admin panel, and the events of the situation, including Lee being online at the time (!) led Steph and me to the conclusion that Lee had banned him. Had Lee not signed off very shortly afterwards, I'd have asked him. Don't form an attack (even an implied one!) without knowing the full story.
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Post by Ocelot on Oct 18, 2007 17:06:51 GMT -5
PS. Eat some freaking pie people. There is so much truth in what Swingblade says here People. Pie. Pie.....PIE!! People there it is for ya. Right there in your face.PIE!!(lol pun) Really guys and girls get in your cars pick up a friend go to Village Inn( or some place where pie is a specialty) and buy yourselves a pie. Sit down. Eat it. If you have ever done you know that it really does something that I will never be able to explain. As far as this topic is concerned. Prime banned again!!!! OK tell me something new....
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Post by Yoshimitsu on Oct 18, 2007 17:24:29 GMT -5
Clearly, you don't know Prime as well as we do.
Yes, what he said was a joke. Unfortunately, everyone here (apart from you, evidently) knows what Prime thinks is a joke. His jokes may be humorous in his eyes, but for everyone else it is usually some kind of verbal attack on another member. In this case, that is how it was taken, and SV acted to defend another member. It could be she didn't realise it was a joke, as many of us don't half of the time, but the point still stands.
So yes. Defended her from a joke.
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Post by SwingBlade Planeswalker on Oct 18, 2007 17:47:09 GMT -5
Your right in saying I do disagree with steph and you more, but that's only because we are on opposite sides of the argument spectrum. I'm on the far side, saying prime should not have been banned, and your on the indefinite he should have side, pretty much everyone else is in the middle, or tilted only slightly to one side or the other. I don't tilt only slightly. I'm personally in favor of a full-on Internet ban for this guy. He lacks any semblance of decency necessary to be a productive member of any true community, at least online. Also, the thing you're forgetting is this: Even if someone is provoked, you still make a choice as to whether or not you will respond. This isn't even the real world, where words are exchanged in the heat of the moment. To make a response of any length online, you have to take the time to type it out. Even if you type 85 words per minute, you have to first decide what it is you're going to respond with, and then take the time to type it out. Is the provocateur right in this instance? Of course not. However, that doesn't put all responsibility off of the one provoked. You *always* have a choice in how you act. No one can "make" you do anything. I'm Josh Clark, and I approve this message. ~Josh Clark, aka SwingBlade
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Post by SwingBlade Planeswalker on Oct 18, 2007 17:59:31 GMT -5
As an addendum to my above post, I'd like to comment on disciplinary escalation. I've only recently joined this place (relatively, anyway), and from what I gather Prime isn't new to fudging up. From what I've read, he used to be staff, either a mod or admin, and had that removed.
Discipline should never be a case-by-case incident report. Offenses need to be a cumulative count. Law enforcement, as well as every online game I've ever played, use this model. You screw up once, and you're disciplined according to the severity of the misdeed. Should you do wrong again, you are actioned based on the severity of what you did, with your previous offense weighed in. This will almost always make what you get the second time more severe than if the first incident hadn't occurred. This is the only truly logical way to handle thinggs. Otherwise, what real teeth do the rules have?
~Josh Clark, aka SwingBlade
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