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Post by Kuroboom on Nov 8, 2010 14:10:35 GMT -5
You're saying that they should all be able to morph into the other species. I get it. I'm just saying it's stupid to make that the basis of the argument that they all have a common trait, even if it is a major one.
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Post by ch00beh on Nov 8, 2010 14:23:50 GMT -5
That's not the actual meat of the argument, though. The argument was over importing another mythos (dragons) into Aleta and the argument was resolved over AIM.
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Post by Beelzebibble on Nov 8, 2010 14:25:52 GMT -5
You're saying that they should all be able to morph into the other species. I get it. I'm just saying it's stupid to make that the basis of the argument that they all have a common trait, even if it is a major one. Interesting definition of "stupid" you've got there. Most people probably wouldn't consider it stupid to point out a redundancy! I'm like the least invested in Aleta of anyone, so I'm really just engaging with you for the sake of that itself instead of in anyone else's defense.
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Post by Kuroboom on Nov 8, 2010 14:36:44 GMT -5
Obviously, again, I didn't read the whole thread. However, people will only be able to build on what they know. It's impossible to make something completely alien.
Anyway, I only posted cause Prime mentioned the thread to me earlier. You kids have fun with your whatever this is.
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Post by Kuroboom on Nov 8, 2010 14:38:40 GMT -5
A redundancy? Look at the Earth. Damn near every species is redundant. If this is supposed to be a real, fleshed out world there are going to be repeats. Nothing is going to be a unique and beautiful snowflake.
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Post by ch00beh on Nov 8, 2010 14:43:50 GMT -5
what about platypus D:
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Post by Kuroboom on Nov 8, 2010 15:05:04 GMT -5
A platypus is a hodgepodge of different animals. It might be unique as a whole, but not by individual traits.
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Post by Beelzebibble on Nov 8, 2010 15:07:37 GMT -5
A redundancy? Look at the Earth. Damn near every species is redundant. If this is supposed to be a real, fleshed out world there are going to be repeats. Nothing is going to be a unique and beautiful snowflake. Again, I'm not an Aleta kid, but I think there's a fair stance to be taken that if they're going to put this much effort into designing a setting with all these specific trappings, it's worth consolidating good ideas and streamlining them to avoid redundancy and create a coherent atmosphere instead of just adopting an "anything goes" policy. Otherwise, Aleta might as well be ORP, where everybody could be running their own personal race of shapeshifters. Lest Prime think I'm going after him again, I want to stress that I'm not taking any position at all on the Zenin. I'm only carrying on a philosophical debate about the validity of wanting to avoid redundancy in Aleta.
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Post by Kuroboom on Nov 8, 2010 15:12:21 GMT -5
I understand your point, it's a valid point. I'm just saying that there can be a few species with similar traits.
Besides, it's not like it's a real shapeshifter like it can turn into anything. It's more like those bug-things from Mimic.
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Post by Prime on Nov 8, 2010 15:41:38 GMT -5
Hehe, I was actually thinking of those at one point when I was creating them. Though they didn't cause any specific motivation.
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Post by {WW}BetaBloodWolf7 on Nov 8, 2010 16:27:38 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I can't support this. So we're having MORE shape-shifters? And Prime gets his uber race? From everything I've seen and heard this is probably going to kill Aleta.
Oh, and there's this little gem here: "Additionally I feel I NEED to point out that if your character knows that Zenin can be detected by touching them and casting magic, then congradulations, you character is an extremely powerful high level mage who actually managed to survive the encounter."
This is where Prime is basically telling us that his race is going to demolish everything else that we've done. So, the Ortiques are screwed, Talitians are screwed, Telaens are screwed, Ovorans are screwed... I'd say that pretty much everyone is screwed except for whatever we have on the fire side of Aleta and Kvidera (though they'll probably get transplanted there)
Now I have no problem with Prime joining World Building and proposing stuff, and I'll listen to his ideas and see how good they are and I might personally approve some and even say so, but, like Lee said, this is basically where all the hard work we've put in amounts to almost nothing.
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Post by Prime on Nov 8, 2010 17:31:50 GMT -5
You're overreacting mate. I don't want that information flung about because ever character when then be innately assumed to know it, and will magically check only the characters that actually are Zenin. The Zenin are not an uber race, as Choobeh has already pointed out. In fact, they have fatal weaknesses and flaws in their very nature.
If you shoot them with a flaming arrow, they die. Explosively in fact. Painful. If they come within six inches of a magical object, its stops working, exposing their presence, assuming the person can interpret the fault. If we make all of this information common knowledge, then the Zenin are an endangered species from the get go.
So, here for instance. You have a city with a population of 4 million. If you know much about Zenin, and can do math, then you realize that about 200,000 easily has the birth potential to feed a single Zenin without overculling the population. They want humans to grow in number, not lessen, because then the food is more bountiful.
In an area of 4 million people, you now know there are roughly 20 Zenin about. Knowing that they explode when punctured with flaming arrows or fireballs, you know how to defeat them. Ordinary soldiers or police with bows and ichor tipped arrows would be an effective extermination squad. And to detect them, you merely set up a great many cheque points, making it difficult for them to move around.
If someone runs, you know they're either a criminal, or a Zenin that knows he's about the be tested. And the method of testing would basically be a flashlight. If the magical light from the 'torch' goes out, here stands a Zenin. Que flaming arrows. And due to their instinctual inability to shapeshift in front of humans who can witness it, they'd be easy targets to armed troopers or police. Even in human form, if struck with an arrow, they'd still combust explosively.
So yes, they are powerful fighters in short spurts at close range. And they can fly. They hunt and eat humans, and even adopt and even improve pieces of their culture, perhaps even work with their military strategy. They have an overall mindset that attempts to foster humanity, making their civilization stronger and wealthier so their bounty is more plentiful.
So sorry, blood, but these are not uber creatures from the eighth circle of hell. You just don't trust me specifically with them. Which has been the overwhelming response from pretty much everyone. The idea stands as it is, and you're welcome to use and even benefit from it. I, however, am apparently unwelcome to use the idea's in my own head.
So yeah, I exaggerated my description. The actual event in the situation where they were prepared for it and knowing what the magics failure meant would likely me an almost certain death for any Zenin. I would just like to emphasis the fact that a Zenin would be very, very concerned, with making sure any human who aquired this knowledge, didn't live long enough to pass it on.
And thus, if you want to assume a high level mage has survived an encounter with a Zenin to pass on this information on a widespread scale and turn them into an endangered species, you're welcome to.
But don't pretend it doesn't make you a dick.
*sigh*
So can I use my own damn idea? Its not like I couldn't go overboard and create a broken human character, so why is so called 'uber creature' off the menu? Prime is an excellent example, he used to be so powerful he could scoff at a God without fearing the response, because the God couldn't be certain he was powerful enough to enforce punishment.
I've been trying rather hard to rein in on my Gurren Lagaan like tendencies over doing overpowered out of the plot things. And from what I understand you, and almost everyone else, feel that I've made progress that measures in nanoincriments. Thanks, your confidence is inspiring and has done a lot to hurt my feelings from the hatching of this idea to its fleshing out.
You're confidence is me has proven to be so low, that I almost don't want to participate at all. I don't get anything out of it, my only response is overwhelming negativity even in the face of a perfectly acceptable idea. I'm not writing purely as a selfish desire, I like the interaction, I like your reactions and your characters reactions. But if I'm not having any positive impact, should I be here anymore? Like, really, should I be here anymore?
I'm not going to be depressed or emo based on your response, its a reality. What is is, but if there's no point to my actions here...then my actions are hollow. Feels sort of pointless, don't you think?
And hell, it hurts most of all that you'd be the one to openly say that Blood. You're the one I came back here for, at your persistent request. Way to knife me buddy.
Note: Assuming Aleta has 1 billion inhabitants, that would account for 5000 plus or minus one hundred or see, Zenin. Oh yeah, their an uber race alright. I wonder how long it would take to kill all the asians on the planet if everyone were dedicated to it. Ooor, the spanish, or black people. Or hell, lets go with a tiny minority like redheads! What do you think? A month? A year? Not that long I'd think...and even those minorities outnumber the Zenin.
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Post by The Evil Biscuit on Nov 8, 2010 20:00:32 GMT -5
Yeah, I really didn't have a problem with them once I knew they were few and far between. They have a very boogeyman, urban legend sort of vibe to them, which I LOVE - especially when I combine it with the tribal cultures of the Imikijini. Mothers telling their children that Zeni al-Tak will come in the night and devour them for misbehaving, or whole tribes being plagued by a pair of Zenin, a la Ghost and the Darkness. It's a very cool idea when you look at it that way, and I'd like to throw that concept in Prime's arena for him to use.
If they were their own race, had a substantial population, and were large enough to exert an influence over the world, then I'd have to say no. But since they're not, I don't find any issue with letting Prime run around eating people. He's not going to eat them all.
Besides, guys, we need enemies OTHER than the jigglyduffs.
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Post by ch00beh on Nov 9, 2010 3:55:53 GMT -5
Ok. I'm jumping in Prime's defense, considering that you guys are also doubting the fact that he worked on this shit with me. I have the overall balance of the world in mind, kids, don't worry your little heads. A golem can take a beast form Zenin, a tower golem can beat the snot out of an unarmored Zenin, and squad of Shields could probably give him one hell of a fight considering they're trained monster-slayers. A single Shield could take on a human-form Zenin. The king badass may be the jigglypuffs, but you gotta remember, Shields are super soldiers who don't see anything wrong with fucking themselves up or throwing laws to the wind to get the upper hand (tattooed buffs, blood magic, chemistry).
Then there are numbers to take into account. As Biscuit gathered, they're on boogeyman levels of scarcity. Archivists know they exist. They're rarer than Powers in ORP.
Local police, I don't see them specializing in catching Zenin.
The shapeshifting is so that he can look human during an RP, otherwise he'll just be killing everything instead of actually interacting, which is about 10x worse.
I don't see what's wrong with too many shapeshifters, anyway, considering that my race of the Reaching Isles have two forms they shift between (a unique looking person and a shark/dolphin/octopus), and the Zenin have two forms they shift between (a unique looking person and a beast). The Dranids, from what I remember, do whatever shape they want because they have no original shape, right? So they're the uber shapeshifting race, from my perspective.
Also, the half-foot anti-magic field snuffs out magical tech, which is pretty prevalent in Aleta. I'm going to hand-wave and say if a mage is casting anything in touch range, or has any buffs, they won't just fizzle out. They'll just sense something is wrong or something. Though sustained magic tech not cast from a person will go out. (lights, flowing water, etc)
In other news, I think I like the boogeymen idea more than the idea of a handful of zenin working openly with the Shields that Prime and I discussed but never finalized. (it was to make the Shields more assholish for letting the zenin raid a town as a reward for beating back a Fall since otherwise, a Zenin can survive off cows and goats, he just won't be happy about it)
A note on diversity in creatures: I assumed it was implied that any creature on Earth exists on Aleta, as well, given the proper biome. We don't need redundant creatures because we're just copy-pasting a working ecosystem. This thread is about defining the fantastical creatures.
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Post by The Evil Biscuit on Nov 9, 2010 11:00:05 GMT -5
aw fuck yeah ELEPHANT RIDERS
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Post by ch00beh on Nov 9, 2010 11:05:45 GMT -5
But we already have BEAR RIDERS this is redundant and your ideas are dumb.
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Post by The Evil Biscuit on Nov 9, 2010 13:02:28 GMT -5
if I can't have phants I QUIT
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Post by ch00beh on Nov 9, 2010 13:11:38 GMT -5
who would even ride elephants?
communists, that's who.
(telaenian elephant riders)
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Post by Beelzebibble on Nov 9, 2010 13:42:48 GMT -5
it's worth consolidating good ideas and streamlining them to avoid redundancy and create a coherent atmosphere Gentlemen People riding bears riding elephants
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Post by ch00beh on Nov 9, 2010 13:45:29 GMT -5
Don't forget to put the elephants on top of telaen!
One Telaen should have four elephants on top of it that hold up some kind of Discworld.
Worlds on top of elephants on top of turtles on top of discworlds.
Genius.
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Post by The Evil Biscuit on Nov 9, 2010 14:22:12 GMT -5
fuck your vertical integration. its all about horizontal.
people riding bears and elephants, Zorro style.
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Post by ch00beh on Nov 9, 2010 16:11:30 GMT -5
Ok, in other news, I've talked to Prime about the anti-magic field. We've settled that the easiest definition for magic and zenin is that in general, magic will work on them unless they've got you grappled, in which case it fizzles. Slapping them in the face with a hand made of fire is fair game, but if they've got you in a choke hold, it won't work. I think that sounds generally acceptable, since if you're in a choke hold, you're screwed anyway.
The whole "feeling wrong" when casting in close proximity is thrown out. It either works, or it doesn't, and most of the times it works.
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Post by Tout-Perd on Nov 9, 2010 17:06:40 GMT -5
Idea for a zenin: It diguised itself as a chef, consciously making its meals as delicious and fattening as possible. It then eats the regulars from its restaraunt, making sure a criminal group meets in the establishment to give an "excuse" for other regulars to vanish. (Bonus points for a showy style of cooking where he risks burning himself constantly, his way of getting "risk", since he's hunting essentially fattened calves for food.)
Of course, that one isn't so much Prime's style. That's more myself, Photu, Ninety, or Biscuit there.
I like Prime's angle of them pushing for humans to be successful. They want food, so I'd actually like to see one as a politician, mandating a certain birthrate for couples, having a rabid expansionist view, and making dangerous deals with the Ortigians to get a boosted harvest, encouraging an even larger population.
All in all, with the idea refined, it's good stuff. It gives us something for the setting that ISN'T Shield/Jiggyhorns, allowing a new angle for a lot of characters. Right now, the big things for Aleta are: -Shields/Jugheads -Zenin -Telaens (Not much shown of them yet, but they're the most easily recognizable facet of Aleta thusfar, IMO, and a lot of plans mention them.) -Ortigians (Yet again, not much motion yet. But they'd make a great evil empire. Somebody mind digging up my old plan involving infiltrating their nation or whatever?)
The Reaching Islands and most of Blood's angle still need some toying with to make them seem an involved part of the setting, IMO. As is, they just feel like outliers. Of course, a bit of tweaking to make it seem like a forboding "Fringe", and we'd be onto something.
Also, is there anything for the UNDERSIDE of Aleta? I might throw together an idea for that if there isn't.
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Post by ch00beh on Nov 9, 2010 17:41:27 GMT -5
Bulbs had some stuff for the underside back on like day 1 (or page 2, who knows), but he never got around to describing them fully. I know there are two factions down there, at least, one who likes nature stuff, and one who uses a different kind of magitek type thing. Overworld booze transports use the underside for movement to avoid authorities.
I'd toss Pelantesque up there in the major things for Aleta. They don't really have much to do with the jigglypuffs and the shields. Bootleggers/authorities for a minorer conflict.
Prime pitched the politician idea at me as well, but my main problem with it is that people will be suspicious of that politician that likes to take a stroll on the nights that someone disappears. Also he's kind of been in office forever. I mean yeah, it'd be pretty easy to fake your death every couple decades (get abducted by horndogs, transform into beast mode, kill, hide, come back), but still.
Also, I think we should examine Tyr before ironing out the other islands. Normally, I'd iron out a detail before adding more, but Prime and I discussed that it would probably be a good idea for the sake of Tyr to combine the worlds. I don't remember anything about this world besides basic firearms, magic, and swords, but apparently there is some futuristic magitek lying around in ruins. Not sure how best to amalgamate, yet, but I think we need the full brief on "what is Tyr."
Prime seems pretty intent on keeping the three island structure of the world, but I'm thinking that geography can be massively retooled so long as we keep the general spirit of the world. I think across the ocean would work for location, and just assume that the current map of Aleta is not the fully explored version. But the problem there would be isolation and lack of interaction.
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Post by Prime on Nov 9, 2010 20:12:58 GMT -5
The main differences are those from Tyr require an ether focus to cast 'magic' as it were, and the transportation. Tyr has a coastal race that tends to be very very good at building and crewing ships. They also had a very loose and open culture. They were also modeled by myself and Bulbs, and took somewhat after Andalites. They were humanoid, but I believe they retained the tail. In any case, they, plus the ancient transport tech. IE Broken old ships, hovercraft, or vehicle classified as 'other', could be used to ferry people across the oceans. Or ocean in this case.
There were a couple other races, I'll boil down the descriptions.
The aformentioned coastal race, I don't recall their names atm but I'll look it up. Or bulbs will know.
Corallians, who are basically humans but have evolved a naturally forming Ether crystal that allows them to weakly, but innately, control magic. I believe they can be easily used to tie into Aleta, as Aletains would recognize the crystal as Magite. Easy neat little tie in no?
There were ordinary humans no different than us I believe. Anyone wishing to reference that should direct their attention to the Sero Shortstory in the fic section.
There was another race, once more the name escapes me, but I believe it started with a G...In any case they tended to be referred to by tribe, and there are around 6 to 8 tribes, all rather large. They were around 8 feet tall, with tails that ranged from a stubby 4 feet to a long 10 feet. Ape like, they're humanoid, but covered mostly with furr save for the exception of their chest and faces. (So, sort of the opposite of where we have hair.) They tended to simply wear loincloths for clothing.
They were also more heavily muscled, and their culture tended to focus on more warlike capacities as well as crafting. So, they make excellent smiths, or construction workers, ect.
The main mode of magic was the aformentioned ether, though in most cases it is with a found or appropriated ether artifact build by ancient technology. (Only the very lucky or very crafty get their hands on one.) And the main method was basically will and intent. So Tyr, as compared to Aleta, has a much heavier focus on what Choobeh refers to as advanced magic, but it presents in a much rarer percentage of the populace due to the rarity of the objects which produce it.
I'd assume Magite presents in Tyr, but unlike Aleta, it has no naturally burrowing holes to the underside that shows them the value of deep mining or such things. Or I'd suggest that Magite is only or prominantly found on the Underside stead of on the main top mass. A reason for it being so expensive in Choobehs mind.
...
My fingers are tired so I'm done now I guess.
EDIT - Side note to Choobeh, name me a night that someone in a city of 20,000 to 300,000 doesn't disappear? Or an even larger city? Most of the time people would write it off as a party, or drinking passed out someone, or not be concerned because its the person's nature.... No, I don't think anyone a politician Zenin, as long as he didn't eat his friggin opponents.
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Post by Prime on Nov 9, 2010 20:28:51 GMT -5
A redundancy? Look at the Earth. Damn near every species is redundant. If this is supposed to be a real, fleshed out world there are going to be repeats. Nothing is going to be a unique and beautiful snowflake. Again, I'm not an Aleta kid, but I think there's a fair stance to be taken that if they're going to put this much effort into designing a setting with all these specific trappings, it's worth consolidating good ideas and streamlining them to avoid redundancy and create a coherent atmosphere instead of just adopting an "anything goes" policy. Otherwise, Aleta might as well be ORP, where everybody could be running their own personal race of shapeshifters. Lest Prime think I'm going after him again, I want to stress that I'm not taking any position at all on the Zenin. I'm only carrying on a philosophical debate about the validity of wanting to avoid redundancy in Aleta. If higher powers didn't believe in redundancy, I wouldn't have a second nut. Nuff said.
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