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Post by Tout-Perd on Feb 25, 2009 1:49:46 GMT -5
Sooo, anyways, I've been readying to start Mafia V next month, but having some issues. There are seventeen types to come up with powers for. That means thirty four powers overall, each needing to be balanced with the others. Needless to say, I'm having issues fleshing it out all of the way. The following types need powers:
*Fighting *Water *Ground *Rock *Dragon
The following types KINDA have powers, but need little bonuses/quirks/rewriting to balance them: *Steel *Ghost *Flying *Ice
Granted, I may retool some of their powers from the earlier ruleset (Flying, Steel, Ghost, and Ice are pretty much just needing to be rewritten in context of the rules), but I still would love to hear input from others on abilities they want to see hit the field in Mafia V. Water, Ground, and Rock all were kinda blah the first time through and hard to interpret well into the new rule set, so I'm especially interested in ideas for those.
Dragon, originally a multipower mimicking others, now is somewhat obsolete in light of multipowers. So what should I do with it? Still multipowers, or something else? And Fighting... well, it never seemed to fit in the Mafia concept since it was either broken or useless. So I also really want to hear ideas for those ones.
Once we iron this out, Mafia V signups will begin, and the game will begin on March 20th or so. Not sure on the exact date as of yet, or the number of people. It all can change, y'know?
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Post by Beelzebibble on Feb 25, 2009 8:47:28 GMT -5
You're going to have to remind us of what powers currently exist so we can avoid redundancy.
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Post by Tout-Perd on Feb 25, 2009 16:39:46 GMT -5
Okay, here's the old powers that have yet to be translated: *Water: Can PM the host and choose to make all of their normal votes count as two normal, nonbonus votes one day, but makes their vote the next day count as 0. They may not use this ability more than one day in a row. *Ground: Ignores all bonus votes used against them. (Dark, Electric Charge, etc.) *Rock: If they do not vote in a town vote, they are treated as having three less votes against them in it. *Ghost: Still dies when killed, but can vote in all votes they’d normally be eligible for the following period. *Ice: May Freeze a player during the night, making them inactive for the next day/night period. This may only be done once per game. *Flying: May once per game choose to be totally absent for a time period (1 night or 1 day). *Steel: Votes from a Steel player always count, bonus or not, regardless of all effects. *Dragon: May use the abilities of Water, Fire (by PMing the host that day), and Electric (though only one bonus vote) once per game each. *Fighting: I misplaced the entry for this one... But I do remember it halved your chance of being Mafia and reduced the votes against you in town by one. That being said, it was rather cack, unlike the other "Chance Shifting" power, Dark. I need to think of something better for it.
Completed Roles: *Psychic: -Single Type: Can inquire the host once per day about a player. They find out both of the player’s types. -Double Type: Can inquire the host once per day about a player. They find out one of the player’s types. If the player has more than one type, they find out one at random.
*Poison: -Single Type: Reduces the value of the votes of all players in the vote that KNOCKED them OUT by one for the next town vote, except for the first voter. Any inactive voters or the last voter have their votes treated as zero for the next two days. -Double Type: Reduces the value of the votes half of players (the half the voted most recently, or didn’t vote) in the vote that KNOCKED them OUT by one for the next town vote.
*Grass: -Single Type: If under an effect that would reduce their voting capability for more than one day, they stop being affected by it after one day/night period. Immune to being Frozen. If voting for a player who has less votes, once per two days, this player may make their vote count as having a bonus vote attached to it. -Dual Type: If voting for a player who has less votes, once per three days, this player may make their vote count as having a bonus vote attached to it.
*Fire: -Single Type: Immune to being Frozen. If the player they voted for in the town vote is KNOCKED OUT, they count as having a bonus vote in the next town vote. If not, their vote counts as being worth 0 in the next town vote. -Dual Type: If the player they voted for in the town vote is KNOCKED OUT, their vote counts as two votes the following day. However, if not, their vote counts as zero in the next two town votes. (If the person they vote for while under this effect the first day is KNOCKED OUT, then their vote returns to the normal one the second day.)
*Normal -Single Type: This player has two bonus votes that they may use at any point during the game. If another normal type player votes for the same player as this one, the total votes against that player are increased by one, plus one for every single type Normal player voting for that player. -Dual Type: This player has a bonus vote that may be used at any point during the game. If another normal type player votes for the same player as this one, the total votes against that player are increased by one, plus one for every single type Normal player voting for that player.
*Bug -Single Type: This player’s votes count as negative one vote. If something would increase the value of their vote, it decreases it instead. If it would decrease the value of their vote, it increases it instead. This player is treated as having one less vote for them in Mafia decisions. This player may choose a type. That type is what this player registers as when a Psychic type inquires about their type. -Dual Type: This player’s votes count as negative one vote. If something would increase the value of their vote, it decreases it instead. If it would decrease the value of their vote, it increases it instead.
*Dark -Single Type: This player’s votes are treated as being worth two. The total vote against this player is treated as being two more than it would normally be. Once per game, this player may choose to use Thief on a player. If so, that player’s abilities all cease to function for one Day/Night period, starting the Day/Night after the Thief is used. This player’s chance of being Mafia is doubled. -Dual Type: This player’s votes are treated as being worth two. The total votes against them are increased by four. This player’s chance of being Mafia is doubled.
*Electric: -Single Type: Once every two days, this character may give a bonus vote to a player (they may give bonus votes to themselves, too). Additionally, once per game, they may “Recharge” a player. If they do so, that player regains one of their Limited Number of Times per game ability (Like Freezing or Thief, or floating bonus votes for Normal players) -Dual Type: Once every three days, this character may give a bonus vote to a player (they may give bonus votes to themselves, too).
There it is. It's fairly self explanatory. Dual type powers players get to pick two of, but generally, a monotype power is slightly more than twice as good as the dual type version, rewarding specialization with increased potency in that area/other perks.
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Post by Beelzebibble on Feb 25, 2009 20:32:18 GMT -5
Um... ah, jeez... you might want to rewrite these descriptions to make them a little more... uh, readable. Like, some flavor text of the "This trigger-happy hunter has taken it on him/herself to save the town from that Mafia scum" variety? Because, I don't know, it's just really hard to work through that list of descriptions for some reason.
But okay, let me see. Psychic is fine, obviously. No complaints.
I still wish Poison had some function before the player got KOd... But even so, it ought to be possible to put a little power into the player's hands. How about this? When a Poison player dies, the player chooses one of the players who voted for him. That player becomes poisoned. In every vote from then on, there will automatically be one vote against him (unchanged by other effects). That would give the Poison player's sacrifice a real lasting effect and put a lot more strategy into the role, since he would get to choose the target. (The original effect you suggest would also be preserved, of course; I'm not saying you should take it out.)
"If under an effect that would reduce their voting capability for more than one day, they stop being affected by it after one day/night period." That's too complicated. Why not just say that Grass players (single-type Grass players, anyway), can't get their voting capability reduced at all? Where would be the harm in that? And I'm not sure why Grass is immune to being frozen; doesn't seem to fit the video games. (You might have already told me, in which case I'm afraid I forgot.)
The penalty for a dual-type Fire player to "vote wrong" is too harsh. Zero vote for two consecutive days? Sheesh! I say keep it with just the one day. The dual-type Fire player already isn't as good as the single-type because his vote maxes out at two rather than just getting a bonus (and he can be frozen, of course).
I'm good with Normal for the moment.
Bug is... oh, what can I say, I dig the concept of Bug. It's so out there that it's wonderful. I feel like only you would want to play that role, though, and you're hosting, so... too bad.
Dark. Ooh. I don't know. I don't know about this Thief business. I feel it might overpower what is already a very attractive role. I look at Dark, and then I look at Poison, and I think, wut.
Electric's cool. Once you've got all the roles sorted out, it'll be nice to know more specifically what powers can be Recharged.
Oh but then there are the other ones. Shit. Okay, I'll come back to those.
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Post by Tout-Perd on Feb 26, 2009 7:20:38 GMT -5
Dark should balance itself out. Sure, it gives you firepower, but on the other hand... It also does leave you a massive point against you. I should probably tweak it to say "WHEN YOU RECEIVE VOTES AGAINST YOU," instead of all the time the votes against you are boosted by four. Otherwise, in a town vote where there is seven people left... You don't receive a vote, and then mysteriously burst into flames.
Hmmm.... The persistant vote is VERY strong, but only usable from the grave. Really, more Ghost's shtick. If anything, I'll need to come up with a poison ability that fits a mono poison player better. Maybe decreasing the value of the vote immediately before theiir own by 1, once every two days? Weaker, but gives them an active power.
Fire was made iwith much caution, since as an "Inertia" ability, there needs to be some sort of counter. But I have other ideas that could work as well and be more balanced, so I will tweak that.
And Grass is immune to freezing/long term vote reduction since they're themed around healing (Natural Cure, Sunny Day, Morning Sun, Ingrain, etc.). I'd give them Leech Seed like ability, but that'd be VERY strong.
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Post by Krazy Glue on Feb 28, 2009 16:15:22 GMT -5
do you remember what happened last time we made mafia too difficult? its the main reason its been so long since we had a game of it...
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Post by Beelzebibble on Feb 28, 2009 19:07:47 GMT -5
I worry that our number-one Mafia fanboy raises a good point. These roles are pretty complicated... I wish there were more of them that were clear throwbacks to established mainstream roles. Psychic is obviously this game's Detective and Electric echoes the Mayor (in the vote-boosting power, that is). But otherwise, I don't find any familiar faces in this lineup. Maybe that's something to consider when finalizing the other roles.
For instance, Fighting could inherit the Vigilante's ability, couldn't it? Of course, this would mean Fighting's chance of being an Innocent would have to be 100%, not just doubled.
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Post by Krazy Glue on Mar 1, 2009 15:18:41 GMT -5
Woop im totally the number one fanboy...
lets not complicate it much more, give them more normal roles from the ordinary game... then lets start! I can't even remember what type I opted in for or anything, lets just go go go go go go!!!!!
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Post by Tout-Perd on Mar 1, 2009 17:59:57 GMT -5
Hmmm... The problem is that far too many normal roles are broken by people "Choosing" them. Lessee... A pair of doctors are immortal, and more than two vigilantes is... Painful, for the mafia. Making them surefire Innocents? Even nastier. The fists of fury would be a no-brainer if you could convince two or three others to do it, too.
Roles that WILL be returning, though: The chronomancer will be back as Ice, with either one freeze (as half), or two freezes and immunity to being frozen (as a full type). Flying's like a more limited, but more controlled Ferryman. All ghosts get the ability to return from the dead for a day of voting, while single type Ghosts find out one type each type a player dies. (Hybrid Channeler/Coroner)
Though not a classic role, Steel's going to be fairly simple with a "My vote is always worth exactly one, and all votes against me are worth exactly one." (At least, dual type. Single type will just have it be that their votes can't be reduced BELOW one.) Ghost is pretty simple, too.
So, yeah, now I've worked out everybody. I've gotta redo Water, Dragon, Ground, Fighting, and Rock. And fix fire so it isn't total suicide to pick.
As a general rule, I'm trying to keep it to "Two useful (But not life or death) powers per player." That shouldn't be hard to keep track of since it leaves a player with two things to keep in mind, and I can simply do checkboxes in an MSWord file to keep track of everything. (When the game was first proposed with one power, people whined about lack of choice and weakness of the abilities... Now, since we're going the other way, of course, we get complaints about how there's too much choice and the powers are overwhelming.)
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Post by Beelzebibble on Mar 1, 2009 21:47:12 GMT -5
Maybe you could assign limits to each role? Like, if the hypothetical Doctor element and the hypothetical Vigilante element had a limit of one, then only the first person to name each of those roles as his top choice would get it. Whereas other, less powerful roles would have higher limits (Normal might be limitless).
I mean, I'm not begging for a Doctor and a Vigilante, I'm just saying that's one way to skirt around having too many powerful roles while still bringing back some old favorites.
EDIT: Also, I may have already asked this, but how do you propose to keep a Fire player from abusing his power by simply changing his vote to match the shifting majority?
EDIT #2: I know my Doubting Thomas stance must be grating on your nerves by now, but I'm having trouble puzzling some dual-typed combinations out:
- Grass/Steel: If the Steel player's vote can't be increased, how will Grass' power kick in? - Fire/Steel (The Heatran): If the Steel player's vote can't be decreased, how will Fire's negative effect kick in? - Normal/Steel: If the Steel player's vote can't be increased, how will Normal's power and effect kick in? - Bug/Steel (The Forretress): What does this do, fix the player's vote at an unshakeable -1? - Grass/Bug (The Parasect): Will Grass' power decrease the player's vote value by an additional -1? - Fire/Bug: If the Fire ploy is successful, then is the player's vote -2 the next day? - Dark/Bug: Will the player's vote value always start off at -2? - Dark/Steel: Does this work at all?
Man, it's all Bug and Steel lousing things up. And I really like Bug, too.
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Post by Tout-Perd on Mar 1, 2009 23:18:45 GMT -5
Hmmm... Your question may have just solved the problem of Fire. Instead of their "Negated vote" just make it so that switching votes happens "On Screen Only" for them, and they have to be stuck with whoever they voted for first. Not AS crippling. A big drawback, but for a bonus vote every other day, it's about fair.
I'm considering maybe making Rock get a sort of bodyguard ability if it's a monotype where every other night, it gets a "Protect" for somebody else. (Dual and mono rock get the ability that when abstaining from a town vote, the votes against them are reduced by 1/3 the total value, with the final votes rounded up.)
I'm not limiting roles because... Well, you know those'll go first. And this time is an experimental outing to see what roles people have a full on preference for. I did see a marked preference for specific types in the first sign ups (Would it be spoiling to reveal which ones were the most commonly picked under old rules? There were three that had three plus players each, and then the rest only got one a piece or less.)
Limiting roles would go a long ways towards damaging the unique twist on this one, and would ruin the learning experience (This really is great in seeing all sorts of stuff behind the scenes. You should have seen the strategies some groups had cobbled together before signups were a week in.)
Ooh, okay. I think I've got an idea that could make fighting less broken. They get powerful moves that leave themselves open (Focus Punch, Close Combat). They'd get the vigilante ability once per game, but after using it, have the votes against them in town boosted by a number (more for a secondary type. MUCH more.) from that point on. So they'd get a powerful ability and a chance to nail the mafia, but be more vulnerable afterwards. So the "MACHOP FIRING LINE!" strategy would need flawless execution, or it'd be suicide. (To make it better for Mafia, Monotype fighters would get one less vote against them in all town votes. Not too useful, but hey, they're Mafia. They're already kickin' butt.)
Okay, I think that just resolved a ton. We've got Doctor/Bodyguard and Vigilante now, and fire/rock/fighting's fixed. All I need is a solid idea for Ground and Dragon, me writing the rules formally, and we're good to start.
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Post by Tout-Perd on Mar 1, 2009 23:43:40 GMT -5
Steel does have compatability issues. Bug... Works, just very wonkily. I'm not sure how to fix steel... It might just be a very bad dual type for most combinations. I'm not sure if I want to really puzzle over it too much. -Grass Steel: -Fire Steel: Both of these will need a tweak to say that they count as voting twice on the vote where their power kicks in. It's tricky, but it makes it worth it. Fire's drawback still works under the new version.
-Normal Steel: Loses their floating bonus vote, but Steel doesn't affect the bonus a group gets from the mob effect of Normal.
-Bug Steel: Exactly. It'd be always negative one, I suppose. It's... I'll just need to tell people Bug trumps Steel in that one incidence. That's all.
-Grass Bug: Yes, your vote for the person with more votes against them would gain an additional -1. So, as I've gone over with you before, it'd allow you to save a team mate with greater votes by voting for them. Tricky, but powerful.
-Fire Bug: Yes, that is how it works. And see it as "You fail to save a person from dieing one day, you get a power boost the next."
-Dark Bug: Yes, that is how it'd work. Which makes it an incredibly powerful Mafia set since you can vote against your own guys in town, looking innocent, while helping them, AND appearing as another type.
-Dark Steel: Works, but negates Dark's abilities totally except for an increased chance of Mafia. You're basically swapping your monosteel removal of the vote ceiling for a better chance to be a bad guy.
At least, that's a quick glimpse through them. Steel is very tricky to word out right as a dual type power, though it allows some nasty combos, too.
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Post by Beelzebibble on Mar 2, 2009 0:38:34 GMT -5
I like all that you're saying so far; I have only one response that immediately comes to mind and it has to do with Fire.
It works well enough to say that a Fire player can't change his execution vote without opting out of the gamble, so to speak, for that round. But an opportunistic Fire player could still abuse the power by waiting until the last moment to cast his vote.
Perhaps the Fire player's power should only kick in if the Fire player is one of the first 50% of townpeople to vote in that round. If the Fire player is in the second half, he'll automatically opt out of the gamble for that round.
What do you think? Is this a helpful stipulation?
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Post by Tout-Perd on Mar 2, 2009 2:48:35 GMT -5
Hmmm... I'd say, rather, during the first half of the voting period, y'know?
BTW, my goal here is around 15 players, 9 innocents, 6 mafia, and we'll do two day periods with Saturday a "Non"-Day. (I dunno... The ratio seems a bit off there, for some reason.)
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Post by Beelzebibble on Mar 2, 2009 8:21:31 GMT -5
3:2 Mafia ratio? Well... maybe.
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Post by Tout-Perd on Mar 2, 2009 17:40:22 GMT -5
Hmmm... Yeah, it's a hair low on the innocents. I wanted to give the Mafia a bit of an edge since they don't benefit from quite a few powers, but that's too easy to swing around. Maybe 9 innocents, 5 Mafia would be a more accurate starting goal? (Then, from that point up, 15 players: 10 innocents, 5 mafia 16 players: 11 innocents, 5 mafia 17 players: 11 innocents, 6 Mafia And from that point up to twenty, add more innocents. If it went over twenty... Yeah, not happenin'.)
Also, I'm thinking we'll go with the Sunday is Day of a Day/night period, Monday is night, etc, and treating Friday/Saturday as... Well, an extended night, I suppose, since I'm not around to run the game then, and voting in town requires me to be around.
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Post by Krazy Glue on Mar 6, 2009 11:36:50 GMT -5
10:5 does work for innocents to mafia, although I'd personally say 11:4 just because a smaller number of mafia will make it much less obvious when it comes to town vote.
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Post by Kuroboom on Mar 6, 2009 13:12:46 GMT -5
How about Ground characters get to use "Dig" once a game? Mono type ground: Dig may be used once every 3 days to cut the votes against them in half. Dual type ground: Same only it reduces the votes by 25% instead. That or you can have them use Magnitude once a game. Use a random number generator to pick a number between 0 and 10. Mono grounds would get the full number added as bonus votes to their vote for the period they use it during, and dual types get half of them added.
As for Dragon, how about you give them Hyperbeam? For full dragons, it'll give them 4 bonus votes for the vote they use it during, but they are unable to vote the following day. (votes against them can be doubled since they can't defend themself to balance it out) Half dragons get an extra 2 votes instead of 4, votes against them are doubled, and in addition to not voting the following day, they can't use abilities of their other type during that period as well.
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Post by Tout-Perd on Mar 7, 2009 4:10:22 GMT -5
Good ideas. A bit strong, but I can work with them.
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Post by Beelzebibble on Mar 10, 2009 22:55:05 GMT -5
I'm cooking up an idea for a future Mafia game. Something horror-themed, maybe Lovecraftian, with... sanity effects. Different roles have different rules for gaining and losing sanity, and this alters their effectiveness. An insane Doctor, for instance, might accidentally kill the character he was trying to protect, by injecting them with poison instead of an antidote.
It would be a really fun little mindscrew game, but of course I really do think someone other than me or Lee ought to host a game next.
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Post by Tout-Perd on Mar 11, 2009 0:27:03 GMT -5
Alas, Pope and Kaz are missing, and I thought those two were vying for next after us.
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Post by Kuroboom on Mar 11, 2009 2:25:28 GMT -5
I'd do one if I had something interesting to bring to the table.
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